Tiana from Film in Revolt spoke with Ash Mayfair, director of The Third Wife – her feature debut focuses on a teenager in an arranged marriage, who learns quickly about her world’s suffocating patriarchy.
Tiana: I saw The Third Wife at Sydney Film Festival and it was wonderful, despite also being very confronting. So, I’m incredibly excited to interview you and have so many questions. To start off, would you be able to introduce yourself to our readers by telling us a bit of your personal background?
Ash: So, I grew up in Vietnam and I actually did not leave the country until I was 13. Then I went to study in Australia for a year. I was in Melbourne and did middle school there and when it was time to do my bachelor’s degree, I decided to go to Britain. I went to university and then afterwards I trained and worked in London as an assistant director and theatre director, and then I moved into film shortly afterwards.
Was film something you wanted to do during university or was it something you decided to do later in your career?
It came late actually because I grew up in Vietnam and when I was growing up, they did not really have any cinema. There were the occasional children’s film, animation, but theatres weren’t very popular. It was very difficult to find any art film. Actually, I didn’t have any concept of an art house movie, at all really, until I came to Australia. I was amazed at my local library because there were DVDs that I could borrow, and I started to watch them and there were books that were innumerable. This was not available in my middle school back in Vietnam. But I knew that I was a storyteller at a young age. I knew that I wanted to write and so as a kid I was already making up stories all the time. In England I read English literature and I was directing student plays. So afterwards I decided to become a theatre director and I think the transition into film was very natural from that point on.
If you didn’t watch many films growing up, what were the directors and filmmakers that inspired you later?
So many. Once I found out that there was such a thing as cinema, I just jumped headfirst. I will tell you a number of names of women filmmakers that have shone a light for me over the years because I really think that male filmmakers have already got a lot of attention. You know anything by Agnes Godard is truly inspiring because she has so much joy and lightness and fun with the medium. I love Jane Campion and I think everything she has made has been excellent. I don’t know if you’ve seen this film but Wanuri Kahiu’s Rafiki. If you have a chance you should check it out . She’s a Kenyan director and the film is absolutely astounding really. She made this film under the constant threat of imprisonment because in Kenya homosexuality is still illegal. When she was making the film about the love story between two young girls they [the cast and crew] were doing it under threat. There are so many filmmakers especially women around the world that are also worth watching like my contemporary Cathy Yan who was at school with me at NYU. She directed Dead Pigs which won at Sundance and she’s now the first Asian-American female director to be directing a blockbuster in the U.S. These are examples that I really think are worth talking about.
Well on that note, because our readership is comprised of a lot of young filmmakers who are just entering the industry, do you believe film school is worth going to?
This is an interesting question because I know that film school was the only way for me since I came from theatre. So unlike so many of my classmates who had experience and opportunity to work in the industry already, I didn’t even know what a shot was. I had no idea what the difference between a wide shot and a close-up was or coverage or anything in terms of the technology and the language of cinema. For me, Tisch was eye opening in so many ways. It had such an influence because I [also] met some of the most inspiring colleagues there. Some of them are women filmmakers I’m still friends with it. We talk on a regular basis, exchanging ideas and stories. But I know that school is probably not for everybody because so many of my classmates already had experience either from their family or from working and volunteering and living in a close vicinity to the making of films. So, it’s really hard for me to make a comparison because I didn’t go any other round.
How did you end up getting financing for your first feature and was the process radically difficult for those just coming out of film school in this day and age?
Yeah it was. It was definitely very trying. I think this is my fifth year now going on six years working on this film full time. It is definitely not easy. So, the screenplay for The Third Wife was my thesis at NYU and because I won a production grant from Spike Lee that I started to draw some attention and managed attract my producer, who’s already quite prominent in Vietnam, on board. From that point onwards it took us another three years to get the financing together for the film and I can tell you approximately 10 percent to 15 percent of the budget came from grants and awards. We attended absolutely every single film market and we just went everywhere and knocked every door. I don’t know how many grant applications they got. I think in my third year I wrote a minimum three applications per week in order to get money for living, development and to shoot. Then afterwards when we had that, then me, my producer, the team and the cast, we started approaching masses and also went on to get grants like for post-production, colour and sound. Everything was a very trying process but I learnt a lot.
What was the one biggest thing you’ve learnt as a result of this process?
It’s hard to say. As an indie filmmaker you have to wear so many hats. I had no idea how much work making a film would ask of you because especially for a first time feature a director you have to do everything. You’re also a writer and you have to be prepared to step into all these roles seamlessly and with patience.
Talking about you having been a theatre director, was film the only medium you believed would suit the narrative?
This story is based on family history. At university I thought I would write a novel about it. When I was in theatre school I was thinking “Oh maybe it could be an opera or play. I’m not sure.” It wasn’t until film school that I got encouraged to write a screenplay. So really for a really long time the story kind of shifted from medium to medium. I never thought I’d give up telling the story but the expression of that narrative did change.
Right. It’s phenomenal. I think it’s great especially since you do focus on the patriarchal sphere and have that feminist viewpoint. Do you think you are socially inclined with the dramatic concerns you portray in your films?
I love women so I can talk about womanhood and what we go through possibly for the rest of my life. I don’t know if that can be construed as creating socially conscious art but…I saw a quote earlier by Toni Morrison and I think all artists to some level will engage with social issues no matter what and even if they deliberately choose not to that’s [also] making a point and is essentially a stance to approve of the status quo. Right. But you know I am kind of butchering Toni Morrison. Really, I do think if we are going to create thoughtful, meaningful, emotionally touching art that’s engaging with humanity on so many different levels, then one of those lands layers is bound to be political.
I really love that concept. Considering the confronting nature of the topic, how did you go about directing your cast and researching?
Actually, I think I was very fortunate to have a cast that was available for weeks before we started shooting. So we came on set for several weeks, I think four or five weeks before we turned on the cameras. So there was a lot of research that was done by the cast previous to the production about their [the people’s] lives, about the pace of life and [regarding] the family of that century. Also there’s so much contribution from their own understanding of the history too that made the theme and characters so rich. Particularly the role of May is not easy. I know it’s a challenging role but also this is something that is historically prominent in the country – nearly every single woman in the country knows that at some point Vietnam has gone through a period of history where polygamy and child marriage was rampant. Absolutely everyone. There was already, I think, an awareness in the national consciousness. So when we talk about this theme and how the cast and I came together to really convey the emotional depth, then I really think improvisation, trust and research was the key here.
If the narrative was so ingrained in the consciousness of the country, were there any other films made in Vietnam that touched on these issues that you used as inspiration or was it more collective familial narratives that you used as inspiration?
Not really. It’s interesting because when I made this film, I was aware that the thematic issues we were talking about, especially this criticism of the patriarchy, is not [just] me. But I was also kind of telling the story of my personal history and family. My great grandmother was married at 14. She was one of several wives to my great grandfather and my grandmother had an arranged marriage when she was also a young and I grew up with these women. I knew my great grandmother. She lived well into the 90s. So, I was kind of approaching it from the lens of family history and these are the details and remnants of memories that were given to me by the women that came before me. So I talked with the cast and I talked with the crew and the one thing that really struck me was that so many women would come forward and tell me that experience I had was a similar familial history or that they know somebody who had gone through the same situation. You know they would tell me “My grandma had an arranged marriage”, “My mother had an arranged marriage”, “My great grandma was also a third wife” and it didn’t stop there actually, it continued during the production, after we finished the film and during the film festival tour and even now. Last weekend I was in Cinema village in New York doing a Q & A and a woman came to me in the audience and she said she’d seen the film three times because her grandmother had a situation that was exactly the same as May. So it was it was something that was absolutely astounding to me that people from every different culture and so many different festivals, we’ve travelled I think upwards of 50 now, have responded to the same problems that we’ve [Vietnam] had regarding young girls.
Yes. And it’s interesting that I watched it and I’m of Indian heritage and so the narrative was also familiar. It’s amazing that one film that touches an issue like that can connect with people from all across cultures.
You know something crazy? When we screened in Kolkata it was absolutely crazy. I couldn’t go because I was working but my producer was there and literally in Kolkata each screening would have upwards of a thousand people. People would sit in every way and even if they didn’t have a ticket they would go and sit on the floor. And then after the screening is done and the second additional screening is about to begin, the audience wouldn’t leave the cinema. So, the police had to come and march them out so that the next thousand people could come in and sit. It was absolutely crazy.
That’s phenomenal. For you that would that be the most rewarding aspect of being a filmmaker, right?
Yes for sure. I think so much of it is so rewarding you know. Even the good and the bad and the achievement and fulfilling all of it is feeding back into who I am as a director and is really is inspiring my next few projects.
The shots were absolutely beautiful composed. In terms of how you went about that in preproduction, are you the type of filmmaker who plans out each shot and the composition in detail before you actually shoot?
I did plan a lot especially my cinematographer but there were also lots of times when we got on set and something changed, and we just threw out everything and tried to find the composition. So I mean I can tell you a lot of symbolism that is in the film is not scripted [e.g.] the thread of the silk worm growing into a butterfly, the cocoon or the cave, the journey of the boat into nature through the cave representing the birth canal. None of that was scripted but came to us because we were on location and saw something beautiful. But then my DP was amazing. I mean she was a tiny Thai woman shooting this film and it was kind of fantastic watching her on set commanding a group of really tall, big guys, the majority of whom had never worked with a female DP before.
Wow that’s so cool. I just remember watching it, especially on the big screen and the entire ambience of Vietnam just came across through each single shot which were so beautiful and breathtaking. You’ve got this and then its juxtaposed with the cruelty of what’s actually happening. It was lovely. In terms of developing the script, were you also making quite a few changes during production or was that more concrete?
No, nothing was concrete. I was already living in these small villages for a few months before anyone from the production arrived. So, things changed nearly every day. I would find a little cricket or something and hear the sound of that and decide “oh this is the sound that we should have in the design because the motif can mean something emotionally or would represent something”. So it [act of changing the script and plans during preproduction] was constant and even during production too. The one thing I knew very quickly going in was her journey. I knew that the film would start with her arrival to the house at the wedding and it would end shortly after the birth of the child. But a lot of the other details were more fluid especially the emotional connections between everyone in the film. Even the silkworms. I was traveling and looking for organic silk in order to make the costumes and then I stumbled upon this small pocket of silk makers that maintained that practice since the 19th century. The visuals looked so interesting and so that became the profession of the household and then ultimately became the representation of the woman’s life in the period. That was not intentional. Somehow, I think it is really possible that, in a way, the artwork makes itself.
I really like that idea. So, you mentioned before that it took four to five years for you to gain financing for the film. Were you working on something else during that time?
Yes, I was a sound mixer. After NYU I bought a second hand sound device set and I was recording sound for films on set. I chose that specifically because as a sound mixer you get to be closest to the actors and hear the director’s direction. It was my way of learning to observe and see good acting and see what the director was saying without being too intrusive.
I see. That’s very clever. Did you end up doing a lot of work and practical training before you directed your first feature?
I’ve done a few features on set and at school did upwards of 20-25 shorts which is actually not that much.
It’s really interesting because I get to talk to a lot of older filmmakers as well and they always say that currently with the disruption in the filmmaking scene with on demand streaming Netflix and Hulu and less distributors, that it’s becoming harder for independent filmmakers to get seen. Do you feel that you agree with that kind of idea? Do you still think that it’s harder for independent filmmakers now than it was before?
I’m not sure. I don’t really have much experience in distribution. Honestly, we’ve been so lucky with this film because we had no expectation going in. We just wanted to make a good film ticket to some festival and then see what happens and boom we’ve got distribution in 28 countries. I could never imagine anything like that starting out. I think Netflix and Amazon have a path and to be honest I don’t know enough about it but they definitely make more films available whether the quality is good enough to be seen or not. I’m not sure if I can answer that question.
You did mention before that you’re working on different projects right now. Are there any projects that you’d like to share with our readers?
I finished a screenplay after the premiere of the film. The story surrounds two young people, a transgendered singer and dancer and her boyfriend who is a cage fighter. The film is set in the 1990s in Vietnam and is really speaking about this woman’s transformation into embracing the body that she wants against the backdrop of the transformation of the city of Saigon in the 90s with the explosion of wealth and American music and pop culture. That’s what I’m hoping to make next.
Wow, I really love this idea.
But you know, I don’t know. I’m sure you know what’s happening already to the film and Vietnam. So right now, I’m not sure if we’ll be able to shoot yet in Vietnam for that reason. So you know it could be another project that I’ll be developing. But either way it will probably around the same theme of womanhood and what it means to be a woman in the present day.
Did you enjoy shooting in Vietnam? Did you find it was an easy and accommodating country to film in because I’ve spoken to several directors who have shot in sometimes harsher locations like Senegal or Afghanistan or India and they always describe how difficult it is logistically as well as cultural impositions. Did you share a similar experience?
Yeah, it is incredibly difficult. I don’t want to scare you though haha. You know this was my love letter to Vietnam which is why we decided to go back there to make the film and to hire people and to create jobs despite all the possible conservative attacks that we knew would happen. Furthermore, because my grandparents were alive, I wanted them to see it in the cinema.
What was their reaction to the film?
Oh it was amazing. Both are in their 90s and my grandfather had to sit in the wheelchair and be driven three hours to see the film [since they do not live in Ho Chi Minh City]. Everybody was crying. For me that is a good enough reason to bring the film back.
Were you surprised with the reaction the film received in Vietnam?
Actually I am not that surprised to be honest with you. Because making the film there, spending the past five years there, growing up there and travelling back and forth, [led me] to already have an inkling of the entrenched influence this patriarchal tradition still has in current society there. If you look at the recent economic and humanitarian reports of Vietnam, I believe it was issued this year by the UN, the numbers are still very revealing of the sexism that exists in society. I think there are 115 to 120 male newborns compared to 100 girls and Vietnam also has one of the lowest numbers of women in governmental or CEO positions. If you talk about the film industry, it is even worse. As I mentioned earlier for so many people on my crew it was their first time working with a woman cinematographer and most have been in the industry working upwards of 20 or 30 years.
Wow that’s deeply troubling. In terms of the film industry in contemporary Vietnam, is it a vibrant and emerging industry supporting talent?
You know I would like to think so and I think there is a lot of demand and if you look at the film industry commercially, there is a lot of possibilities. From when I was growing in the 80s and the 90s till now there has been a lot more cinema and a lot more films are getting made. However, it is hard to see where arthouse films and independent films can find their feet. There’s a whole host of reasons behind it but lack of support, lack of financial investment, lack of education, lack of opportunity and lack of freedom have played into this. Like for this film, the reaction it is getting was completely unwarranted. A lot of the artistic community in Vietnam have reflected that saying that this is very much the death of independent arthouse film in Vietnam. If this was the reaction of a very feminist movie then how can anybody make anything more controversial or more politically different?
Yes for sure. Well since time is limited, I do have one burning question for you. Do you have any piece of advice you can impart on young filmmakers?
My advice would be that during your process of making your first feature there will be so many things that you will have to compromise on and [thus] you need to really know what it is that you can never give up because that will be your voice. That will be the only thing that can keep you going and can keep you strong in order to protect what you have. I really believe that if you know what it is , something that you can absolutely not compromise on, that will take you very far.
By Tiana Malhotra
THE THIRD WIFE IS IN CINEMAS THIS THURSDAY JULY 4.